TargetTalk

Amusingly you could score the qualification hit/miss too and would barely get a difference at the top level. Since they effectively only shoot tens and nines anyway. However if that is how it was defined it would be super frustrating to beginners since they'd only score once every 10 shots or so.

What really irritates me about most of these discussions is that almost all of the suggestions try to turn it into a different sport. I think this already came up earlier in this thread. In a lot of sports that have qualification and finals, both of those are the same event. If you ask a shooter what kind of scores they get they will give you a "qualification" score and not a finals score. Since for anyone other than athletes on the international circuit the finals are a tacked on extra bit they encounter zero to three times per year. Yet everyone who tries to fix this is suggesting some new event that is significantly different from the qualification. Usually by making it more convoluted and volatile in the name of "excitement" which is in my opinion going against the spirt of the sport.

Precision events are about endurance, consistency, time management... None of which is admittedly interesting to watch. Then again, I don't entirely understand why people like to watch the middle part of a marathon or street cycling race. To me this always feels like someone is trying to tack on a 400m hurdles final to a marathon race, or an offroad race to the tour the France. Because they imagine it being more "exciting to watch".

But by doing that you are not improving the sport you are just replacing it with a different one.

Edit: The three position rifles final is almost an entire qualification match (3x15 instead of 3x20). That's imo the direction all of the finals should go if anything. Do hit/miss scoring for all I care but don't box most of it into 50 second slots (taking away the time management skill). Have multiple 10 shot in 10 minute series or so.

Peter Lovett wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2024 1:51 am ... and for pity's sake make them available to both sexes to compete in.

This subject of mixed events has been done to death. Equal outcome is the stated goal, not equal opportunity.

If you make the events mixed, men will win more medals than women and that doesn't fit the plan. The plan is equal numbers competing and equal numbers of medals awarded. That's why one men's event was removed from rifle (50m prone), pistol (Free Pistol) and shotgun (Double trap), so there could be 2 for each gender. Then they added a mixed team event so there would still be the same number of medals handed out. It's all political decisions, nothing to do with promoting the sport.

In the 3rd Quarter USAS board meeting, Cassio Rappel from Brazil was a guest speaker. He commented on the fact that the athletes on the ISSF board got together and came up with a proposal about Rapid and Sport. These are the only two shooting sports that are completely different for men and women. Trap, Skeet, Air Pistol and Air Rifle, 3x40, all have the exact same format and number of shots for men and women. Only Rapid Fire and Sport have different formats. The IOC wants the ISSF to make things equal. They did that a few years ago when men and women were required to shoot 60 shots in the qualifying rounds in rifle and pistol and 125 targets in clay target events.

Cassio reported that since many World Cups had already been scheduled and planned, that Rapid Fire Men would still be contested through most of 2025, but would be transitioning to Men and Women Sport Pistol in the future. So, bottom line, Rapid Fire is out.

We'll see what the new rules say in February. But it is not likely that Rapid Fire will survive as an Olympic sport. But, like all the other OLD sports, it will remain as a World Championship event.

Marc Orvin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 3:52 pm In the 3rd Quarter USAS board meeting, Cassio Rappel from Brazil was a guest speaker. He commented on the fact that the athletes on the ISSF board got together and came up with a proposal about Rapid and Sport. These are the only two shooting sports that are completely different for men and women. Trap, Skeet, Air Pistol and Air Rifle, 3x40, all have the exact same format and number of shots for men and women. Only Rapid Fire and Sport have different formats. The IOC wants the ISSF to make things equal. They did that a few years ago when men and women were required to shoot 60 shots in the qualifying rounds in rifle and pistol and 125 targets in clay target events.

Cassio reported that since many World Cups had already been scheduled and planned, that Rapid Fire Men would still be contested through most of 2025, but would be transitioning to Men and Women Sport Pistol in the future. So, bottom line, Rapid Fire is out.

We'll see what the new rules say in February. But it is not likely that Rapid Fire will survive as an Olympic sport. But, like all the other OLD sports, it will remain as a World Championship event.

Then why not Rapid Fire and Sport Pistol for both men and women, that is, not mixed teams but the same discipline for both sexes.

Peter Lovett wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 8:10 pm Then why not Rapid Fire and Sport Pistol for both men and women, that is, not mixed teams but the same discipline for both sexes.

This has been debated to death and back.
Look up the old threads around 2016 when P50 was dropped from the Olympics...

This is only in the Olympics, the events will continue to exist (more like, survive...) outside of it...

You only have 5 Olympic events in pistol (+5 in rifle and +5 in shotgun):

Men's P10
Women P10
Mix teams P10
Sport Pistol Women 25m
Rapid Fire Pistol 25m

And you have to have the SAME number of medals for men and women.
There isn't much else you can do with this restraints...

Hope this clarifies
rmca

i would be very happy if Sport Pistol would be adopted as men's 25m pistol olympic event

Marc Orvin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 3:52 pm In the 3rd Quarter USAS board meeting, Cassio Rappel from Brazil was a guest speaker. He commented on the fact that the athletes on the ISSF board got together and came up with a proposal about Rapid and Sport. These are the only two shooting sports that are completely different for men and women. Trap, Skeet, Air Pistol and Air Rifle, 3x40, all have the exact same format and number of shots for men and women. Only Rapid Fire and Sport have different formats. The IOC wants the ISSF to make things equal. They did that a few years ago when men and women were required to shoot 60 shots in the qualifying rounds in rifle and pistol and 125 targets in clay target events.

Cassio reported that since many World Cups had already been scheduled and planned, that Rapid Fire Men would still be contested through most of 2025, but would be transitioning to Men and Women Sport Pistol in the future. So, bottom line, Rapid Fire is out.

We'll see what the new rules say in February. But it is not likely that Rapid Fire will survive as an Olympic sport. But, like all the other OLD sports, it will remain as a World Championship event.

I will not be surprised if this occurs for many reasons. It is definitely easier to create infrastructure for Sport Pistol than it is for Rapid Fire especially in the U.S. I do believe that it makes the sport more accessible to those who have regular ranges to them in the U.S. I am sure that internationally this is not going to probably go over well, but I am more concerned about firearm sports going away completely in the Olympics at some point in the future. I am still not happy about the Collegiate Teams getting rid of Free Pistol in the U.S. I will be curious to see what the gun manufacturers come up with if these changes come to pass.

Men's 25m would also allow for a mixed teams event at the Olympics (i.e. a team of two, one male and one female) which the IOC seem to be very keen on. Though this would be a new event, a set number of competitors shooting 25m matches can be gone through a hell of a lot faster than the same number doing RF without massively increasing the capacity of the range facilities. As such dropping RF but adding Men's 25m and a 25m mixed team event wouldn't have that big an impact on the shooting timetable and (as shown at the Paris Olympics mixed-team AP event) it makes for good TV.

Fortitudo Dei wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 7:08 pm Men's 25m would also allow for a mixed teams event at the Olympics (i.e. a team of two, one male and one female) which the IOC seem to be very keen on. Though this would be a new event, a set number of competitors shooting 25m matches can be gone through a hell of a lot faster than the same number doing RF without massively increasing the capacity of the range facilities. As such dropping RF but adding Men's 25m and a 25m mixed team event wouldn't have that big an impact on the shooting timetable and (as shown at the Paris Olympics mixed-team AP event) it makes for good TV.

To add mix teams in 25m you will have to drop mix teams in air pistol (which is a good idea...).
We only have 5 events in pistol. We cannot add events.

M-1903A4 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 1:36 pm I do believe that it makes the sport more accessible to those who have regular ranges to them in the U.S. I am sure that internationally this is not going to probably go over well

I'm not sure if by "internationally" you mean in other countries or in international competitions (as in top level). I think the first isn't a concern. Here in Switzerland every single one of the ubiquitous 25m ranges has the capability to run the RF program. Yet there is basically zero interest to do so. It's such an outlier within the sport that no one really trains for it casually. It's also inconvenient to run competitions. It cuts your range capacity by a factor five and the faster times don't compensate for that. So you have the same effort and headcount requirements to accommodate like a third of the competitors? It's just impractical even if you do have the equipment for it.

Despite the 25m "womens" sport pistol with the .22 not even being a thing for men according to the ISSF. It's the most common outdoor match being shot here. Only very few people bother with the cost of .32 for CF. Even standard pistol events are wildly more common than either RF or CF.

So at least here I think almost everyone agrees that fixing this glitch of 25m sport pistol not being the official event for both women and men is the right thing to do. Because for "the masses" that is the reality of participating in the sport anyway. It's the Olympics that are being weird.

M-1903A4 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 1:36 pm I will not be surprised if this occurs for many reasons. It is definitely easier to create infrastructure for Sport Pistol than it is for Rapid Fire especially in the U.S. I do believe that it makes the sport more accessible to those who have regular ranges to them in the U.S. I am sure that internationally this is not going to probably go over well, but I am more concerned about firearm sports going away completely in the Olympics at some point in the future. I am still not happy about the Collegiate Teams getting rid of Free Pistol in the U.S. I will be curious to see what the gun manufacturers come up with if these changes come to pass.

Why did USA Collegiate teams get rid of free pistol? Or do you mean they changed it from live rounds to air pistol?

I'm assuming 25m pistol in the olympics will be live rounds? Sorry for the silly question, in UK hand guns are not available, so for me, I'd prefer air pistol 25m event, not sure if that would be possible?

I hope someone can re-educate me on what I've said lol.

There are a number of collegiate coaches who were not happy about dropping free pistol. The primary excuse was that it was no longer an Olympic event. Air pistol has been part if the US collegiate program since at least the 1980's.

I also heard Free Pistol was dropped from Collegiate since it took longer for the event to be conducted. I am wondering how long the Olympics will have any firearm events in the future. There are a number of countries and U.S. states that keep restricting firearms. If that occurs, it will be a very sad day for the shooting sports. I’m not surprised that Rapid Fire appears to going away from the Olympics as well. Pentathlon no longer has a true pistol event. In the U. S. The Collegiate programs were some of the only feeding programs into the Olympic shooting sports. Those programs have been disappearing as well over the years for a number of reasons. I hope that trend will be reversed at some point.

Yes, one complaint about free pistol was that having a 4th event (of any sort) made the matches very long.

Now that collegiate international shooting is under SASP's umbrella, and not the NRA, there is starting to be some growth. One thing that is apparently helping is that the "Title 9" law requires some sort of parity between men's spots and women's sports. For big state universities with huge money making men's football/basketball programs, they get in constant trouble due to the size of the men's programs. Some of them are waking up to the fact that pistol can be a low cost co-ed or women's sport to help balance their Title 9 requirements. Ohio State figure that out a while ago, and they have a full varsity program with scholarships. Unfortunately, they apparently are still in trouble with Title 9, and are going to switch Pistol to a women's sport in an attempt to boost those numbers.

Another thing that should help is the resurrection of the PPP (Progressive-Position Pistol ) program for junior shooters. That should help boost the number of younger juniors that eventually go into the Junior Olympic Program.